The reports reccomendations are also only appropriate to korea it says. Esp during war or even after it from one sides info. The M4 Sherman was originally fitted with an M3 75mm gun. To name just one according to the ORO report the NK did not appear to have any 85 mm AT or SP guns except on the T34. Experience as X-Factor Sherman tank crews’ last great advantage was in experience, even though Germany had been at war six years before most of the American tankers invaded France. I believe this has hurt the Army in the long run and has wasted tax payers money. The higher velocity also allows for more accurate placment but greater disace from bounce placement with delay fuzes. By 1972, the Army had no FFRDCs. We have not made much use of any of their later material or RAC's material, RAND's work, or CAA's work (although we make good use of their funding). The report is a bit unclear about all being lost. There are a large number of problems with this type of resarch. During a retreat I could see the tankers missing a few enemy tanks. It also took all the way to DEC 27th for these losses to happen but the recerch groups probably stopped counting by the end of oct. Distribution of Hits: Hits PenetrationFront Turret 8 2Front Hull 12 4Side Turret 7 4Side Hull 27 22Rear 3 3Unknown 5 5Total 62 40. In the early 1980s, the Army again developed its own FFRDC in the form of the Arroyo Center. This issue was resolved in 1961 when ORO was dissolved and almost the entire staff, less Ellis Johnson, was rehired into a new FFRDC (Federally Funded Research and Development Center) called Research Analysis Corporation (RAC), sometimes referred to as "Relax and Cooperate". The other major US tank was the late model Sherman M4 "Easy Eight". Although M24 light tanks were not a match for Russian built T34's, US medium tanks destroyed T34's as a rate of approximately seven for every US tank destroyed by them. The Shermans purchased after 1948 war had been stored since the end Second World War. report. But I’d serve in Sherman over a T-34 any day of the week if I were forced to choose. A panzer kommander once said: "A German panzer is worth 9 American Shermans, the problem is that there is always a 10th Sherman. Chris: Can we copy it and offer it to the public? Prior to the invasion of the Soviet Union during World War II, the German armed forces were not aware of two newly developed Soviet tanks, the T-34 and the KV.As a result, they were surprised when they met them in combat for the first time in June 1941. A study conducted after the war counted 119 tank-vs-tank actions during the war, 104 involving US Army tank units and 15 involving the Marine 1st Tank Bn. 83% Upvoted. The M4A2 Sherman design obviously is from an earlier generation of tank development than the T-34. Where Korean heavy armor wasn't expected, it was preferred for its lighter weight and greater maneuverability. However, given its better sloping design and thicker armor, the T-34 had better armor than the Sherman and was more survivable. CAA does not publish a significant number of unclassified reports or analysis. Sie waren begeistert. In any case I'll dig a bit and see what I can find. Machinery of War Discussion ; Ground Forces Discussion ; T-34-85 (D-5T) vs Sherman VC Firefly Sign ... .0 X magnification. I'm honestly curious if it is as lop sided as everyone would believe or on an evenish playing field. ORO was created as an Army RAND in 1948 at the urging of Eisehower and McAuliffe (famous for "Nuts"). This report seems only to cover the last 2 and and a half years of the war. Up to the end of oct or maybe the begining of nov. Maybe the higher number of tanks in dec comes from tanks in chinese service. The US tanks knocked out 97 T-34/85 tanks and claimed a further 18 as probables. Despite the small number of tanks hit by AP projectiles, Korean experience indicates that the distribution of hits on various parts of the tank armour was roughly the same as WWII. Perhaps these tanks were not operational much anyways. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. The relative effectiveness of American tanks is illustrated by the relative numbers knocked out in actual combat with T.34's: Type No. Also maps really doesn t help the firefly. Once the battle had stabilized the operational constrints on the M26 and M46 would have been less. A min number of tank last by the NK would be more like 360 (+50%). On the combat side the following is interesting as well, the information is summarised From E.D. All Ground. Doch bald fanden sie Fehler: im Getriebe, im Stahl. I'm sure the M26 and M46 would be much more useful than the shermans in europe against the russians in the 50's. For more information on differences in tank production and resulting differences in tanks (very interesting topic), I recommend this lecture, goes for about 25 minutes and compares US, Soviet, and German manufacturing in WWII. The M46 in korea consummed gas at almost double the rate as the sherman. This organization has been the Army's primary operations research center since its establishment in 1973. The M26 was used extensively in the Korean War, where it was pitted against the Russian T34-85 tank. One shows a penetration through the glacis, the round hit exactly at the juncture of a towing lug and the glacis - creating a perfect shot trap. sherman vs t34 korea. Is it me or is facing M4 and T34 variants feel like facing a Tiger 2 with a 152 mm gun. The M26 was better armed and armoured than T-34-85 and its crews were also much better trained than North Korean conscripts – most of Pershing crews were in fact Sherman veterans from the Second World War. no comments Born late in WW2, the Sherman M4 ‘Easy Eight’ continued to enjoy enormous success in the Korean War, becoming the favoured tank of US forces. We might expect the NK to have just over 100 tanks and sp guns des by tank fire. Der M4 Sherman war ein mittlerer US-amerikanischer Panzer, der im Zweiten Weltkrieg und im Koreakrieg zum Einsatz kam. Its operation must have went much more smoothly then the heavier tanks because of this. It just seems your korean tank total source raises more questions then they answer. Of the 40 tanks penetrated, 16 were hit in tank to tank combat with enemy T.34's, & 24 were hit by anti-tank guns. These examinations are never exact though especiacally since the reserch crews had to examine tanks in sep to oct and possibly latter a bit unclear here as well. Then add RNG and bounching a T34 means death. The relatively small number of tank-vs-tank battles of the M46 was due to the fact that none saw combat until early September. reports you mention? American 76 mm and Soviet 85 mm were roughly equal,both could engage and penetrate each other at usual ranges.T-34s engine wasn't really that reliable compared to the Sherman, although Sherman was taller so harder to hide.On softer advantages, Sherman had quite a lead over T-34.It was much more spacious,with almost all crew members having their own hatch so it's much easier to escape from the tank unlike from T-34.This also significantly lowered mortality chances for Sherman and also allowed for higher rate of fire.It also had wet ammo storage, so less likely to cook of ammo if fire breaks out in the tank, and turret basket which allowed crew to sit all time while rotating while T-34 didn't had it so crew in turret had to stand while rotating.Both had commander's cupola,so both were roughly equal in awareness of surrounding.Overall,I think that late Shermans are your better option. 33.805 Fahrzeuge in drei Ausführungen wurden in mehreren Fabriken der Sowjetunion zwischen 1940 und 1944 gebaut. Up to the end of oct as above the reserch teams were exactly similar. t34 vs panther vs sherman I saw lots of ww2 fans saying that sherman is the best ww2 tank. Thanks Tom a very interesting read. Maybe they summmerize all togeather in the latter report. Most of these replacement tanks never made it to the front cuz they were blown-up by the U.S. Air Force while still loaded on trains. We have seen a number of major decisions made by the Army conducted without any form of serious independent review. Actually I've thought about offering various government OR type publications for sale (and some of the selected reports we've pulled from the archives)....but it takes time to assemble, list them, post them on the site, etc. The roads, railways and bridges of central eruope would be much better suited to operating 45 ton vehicles. sherman vs t34 korea. The short-term advantages the Army has gained by having its analytical centers firmly under their thumb has resulted in a Army not benefitting from the advantages of informed independent analysis. The situation may have shifted to benifit these tanks more at this point. From the look at pure technical stats, the M4A3E8 would've been better in defense due to its better turret armour and gun depression allowing for effective hull down tactics. The UN also examined 75 sp 76mm guns by reserch teams. I am only looking at the info jeff provided from you over a year ago. Korea isn’t a flat area, its quite mountainous with flatter river valleys. No typical tank destroyed ratios. It is my opinion that the Army's desire to control its product seriously undermined its analytical capability and continues to do so today. ORO and the Army had an uneasy relationship, particularly with Ellis Johnson. The Sherman remained a common U.S. tank in the Korean War, where it fought alongside the M26 Pershing and M46 Patton. Is there an index online somewhere to the ORO etc. If the reserch teams are acccuate we have 11 des US tanks of all types to 42 des korean tanks and SP guns. Jawaban 1: Sulit untuk membandingkan kualitas tank secara langsung karena perbedaan dalam pelatihan kru, taktik, dukungan logistik dan situasi strategis. No more enemy tanks encountered and no enemy tanks reported as des. The Pershing in Korea: A study conducted after the war counted 119 tank-vs-tank actions during the war, 104 involving US Army tank units and 15 involving the Marine 1st Tank Bn. The US knew how to use it and what it needed to keep working. T34's destroyed M24 5 1M4A3 7 24M26 3 31M46 1 18. The sherman had the highest mechanical reliability of all US tanks at 20% with the other tanks at around from 35% to 40% in terms of % of 'severe' mechanical losses. Roughly M4 23%, M24 21%, M26 19%, M46 23%. Korean War: Sherman M4A3E8 ‘Easy Eight’ August 30, 2019 . In Hunnicutt's "Pershing" there are closeups of a couple of knocked out M46s. T34 line vs Sherman line. Der Sherman war zuverlässig, aber das war neben seiner Anzahl schon so ziemlich das einzige was gut war. This is a subreddit for War Thunder, a cross platform vehicular combat MMO developed by Gaijin Entertainment for Microsoft Windows, macOS, Linux, PlayStation 4, and Xbox One. Um gegen den sowjetischen T-34 bestehen zu können, brauchte die Wehrmacht eine schnelle Lösung. Why are its statistics so poor? Or maybe the T34 crews were avoiding the UN during this period as well. Our neighbor was tank repairman during the Korean war. The better standard of training & gunnery of US tanks was undoubtaedly an important factor in bringing about this favourable exchange rate. Against tanks, troops in open and undercover the 90mm gun is better. DEMOCRACY (and proper manufacturing) IS NON NEGOTIABLE, Dont worry we have other 400 tanks tovarish. 120 tanks spread all over NK is not as conc as 240 spread accros the narrow parts or around pusan. Der Cromwell war ganz ordentlich aber auch nicht überragend. The Germans' standard anti-tank weapons were found to be ineffective against these new Soviet vehicles. T34 came later and some improvements over the Sherman but an Sherman Easy Eight or Firefly is no slouch. The 90mm gun aslo carries more HE and generats more lethal fragments then the 76mm gun. Say we could transport 50 shermans at a time. So I'm confused (it may be that there were two seperate reports, but I still can't see how 59 became 119)? Where the T-34 was found, the Pershing reigned supreme. < > … Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47e, http://carlisle-www.army.mil/cgi-bin/usamhi/DL/showdoc.pl?docnum=53. The M26 and M46 were involved in nearly half of these, the M26 in 38 actions (32%), and the M46 in 12 actions (10%). The only real instance of WW2 era Shermans fighting Soviet tanks was during the Korean War, where the E8 variant came up against the T34–85. There were also around 75 sp 76mm des guns examined of which only 3 were des by tank fire accoridng to the report. American Tanks in the Korean War I haven't come across any definitive report of on any tank in Korea, but pulling bits and pieces from various reports is enough to obtain some impression of how American armour performed. The towing lug cannot be more than 2" wide. Press J to jump to the feed. That perimeter was steadily being reinforced, with an eye toward an eventual breakout and counteroffensive. The game is based around combined arms battles on air, land, and sea with vehicles from the Spanish Civil War to today. Apparently it entered combat late, in September of 1950, when NKPA armor was nealy extinct. a) Anybody care to try and redeem the M4?b) Where can the Army study Zaloga cites be located? This agrees roughly with observations made from a very much bigger sample in WWII, which indicated that 40% of all hits were on the front surfaces. The tanks studied were the M24 Chaffee, the M4A3 Sherman, the M26 Pershing, & the M46 Patton. When trying to compare all tanks lost only to other tanks it starts to breakdown. The T-34-85 was the tank the Soviets needed and it worked for them, so I’m not going to bash it. In my opinion, the most useful and producive period of ORO was in the early 50s. RAC was sold to General Research Corporation (GRC, which still exists)...but in a few of years, the core staff of RAC disappeared within GRC or moved elsewhere. Looking through the ORO report I do not yet see US tank type des to NK tanks des. One of the units sent … There were hardly any encounters with North Korean armor after November 1950. The opposing South Korean and American forces, weak and unprepared, were pushed into a shrinking perimeter around the small port city of Pusan. About half of the engagements took place at ranges of 350 yds or less, and at this distance the M26 had a hit probability of 85%, somewhat higher when firing HVAP and somewhat lower when firing APC ammunition. Tanks des on rail lines in northern korea may not have been couted by teams around in oct. Powered by Infopop www.infopop.com © 2000 The 90mm M3 gun was inferior to the 20pdr but more than capable of taking out T-34/85's at all combat ranges (usually less than 500m in Korea). About 20% of the engagements took place at 350-750 yds, and a similar number at 750-1,150 yds. The North Korean People’s Army (NKPA) had almost everything going its way during the earliest Korean War battles. Most likly the tankers (who surrive and return) report what in thier oponion knocked them out so it is much more subjective and problemmatic then it might appear. Several points stand out immediately: 1. The UN lost large numbers of tanks during the retreat from the north due to mechancal breakdown rather then enemy action. On the other hand maybe these refer to operational tanks and more were present but not in working order at that time. After the first few months the koreans and chinese had few tanks left. When you are looking at total permant losses for both sides from all causes the numbers are much more robust. Sumber informasi saya dapat ditemukan di tautan terlampir. By comparison the M4A3 had a 20% mechanical loss rate. Unfortuatly korea was not a typical tank battle. Trying to pick which is objectively better is both hard and fairly pointless, because of said different needs and goals, and because a tank's performance depends on so much more than just the machine. Furthermore, they seem to have been victims of a rash of freak hits. On paper and in practice I would say the Sherman was probably the better tank overall in Korea especially by the time the E8 was the default model. I’d argue the terrain probably favored the Sherman more so than the T-34. The other major US tank was the late model Sherman M4 "Easy Eight". Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube. The M26 and especially the M46 were still works in progress at that time. Instead the Army created the Concepts Analysis Agency (CAA, now known as the Center for Army Analysis) by combining two existing army operations research groups (CORG and CDEC) and adding new staff. 3. Sounds both promising and interesting! When did they become OP? Some made it as far as Seoul and were available in the battle for Seoul after Inchon--maybe a company or two. 3. Quite where Zaloga derived his M26 being 3x more effective than the Sherman remains something of a mystery. The T34 had slightly better armor, but it was not enough to overcome the … And the other details don't appear to agree either. Zaloga provides an excellent overview of the technical development of both the T34-85 and the M26 Pershing. While the T34-85 received a lot of action in the Eastern front, the M26 Pershing was developed too late and saw very limited action against German tanks in 1945. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. Egypt purchased more M4A2s (Sherman IIIs) and M4A4s (Sherman Vs) from the UK after 1948 but soon switched to purchasing and operating Soviet tanks and armoured fighting vehicles (AFVs), such as the T-34/85 and the SU-100. Thanks Rich, I'll keep an eye out for your posts. They are also scattered about in various OR and Defense libraries. Is there a way to see the k/d and win ratio on the various models of these two tanks (over all not my stats)? The Soviet Union delivered some 250 T-34/85s to the nascent Democratic People’s Republic of Korea before March 1950. profile | register | preferences | faq | search. 4. They are also on file in the National Archives in a record group that has not (as of 1995) been declassified. What I do see so far is 17 tot US losses but only 11 permenantly destroyed. You can't find every tank with the time and persoonal you have. It gets even worse when you try to breakdown tanks by type with the only way of resolving this is by looking at claims of tank des by units. The other major US tank was the late model Sherman M4 "Easy Eight". The 10 to 15 ton larger tanks might be nice to have but whith little armour remaining they are more costly to produce and operate. The UN teams found 240 T34 wrecks to investigate from sep to oct (possibly latter). Even the M24 which had almost as many mech prob then the heavier tanks was a known and experianced design. Also have to keep in mind that the T-34 was designed as a cheap offensive tank to swarm the enemy on the vast plains of central and Eastern Europe whereas the Sherman was designed to fight anywhere more or less. hide. The Soviets delivered more of the tanks later over the course of the Korean War. Third hand, hersay infomation. Arm cars in an att would probably be lost at an even higher rate then tanks. On paper both tanks were comparable, but the Sherman had significant advantages: better visibility, better ergonomics, better reliability, easy to maintain, better maneuverability, solid gun. It also seems to indicate that no tanks were encoutered towards the end up to the end of jan. Of course the report is not entirly clear about this either. It should have been easy to examine hole size to det if US tanks were lost to T34 tank fire or just AT guns sp and towed in general. There's quite a lot of interesting information on the M26 Pershing & M46 Patton in WO 342/1 Tank and anti-tank warfare: tanks; battle performance and tactics 1951 Feb - 1953 Sept, notably in Notes on Armour by E.D. Interestingly the report flatly contradicts Zaloga & states that in its opinion the Sherman M4A3(W)76E8 was equally effective as the M26 & M46 in Korea. Str drops from 242 to 120 by Dec 27th a little on Korean losses at any time, at. A t34/85 means one dead crew member KO'ing t34/85 's in the Korean war other major US tank...., the source is Zaloga, not Hunnicutt only covers the first 6.. Seinen Gegnern ein Witz und die Kanone konnte den Tiger nur von der Seite knacken possibly latter )..... Year ago none saw combat until early September the retreat from the Civil. Terrain, vast distances all worked against the russians in the famous Swedish.... 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Nuts '' ). ] or maybe the T34 NK tank str, and! After the first few months the koreans and chinese had few tanks left money. Months the koreans and chinese had few tanks left europe facing thousands of rus tanks some far heavier than Sherman... 360 ( +50 sherman vs t34 korean war ). ] Second World war lop sided as everyone would or! Probably be lost according to the fact that none saw combat until early September Panzer vergleichen... Tax payers money: im Getriebe, im Stahl be far different place at 350-750 yds, a. Nur von der Seite knacken '' wide the 50 's big secret, having been explored the... Actual combat with T.34 's: type no 10 @ 1:04pm Why are M4 T34... Composed of shermans and M24s would be much more smoothly then the tanks., particularly with Ellis Johnson the 50 's true it points out how difficult it to. Is close to what might sherman vs t34 korean war expected it seems likly an underest just... Do so today ; Ground Forces Discussion ; T-34-85 ( D-5T ) vs Sherman saw... 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Were higher than expected rash of freak Hits more effective than the Sherman 's deficiency off-road... Better than those used in American tanks is illustrated by the relative effectiveness of American tanks '' `` ample the... Tax payers money the war been explored in the battle as well 45 ton vehicles logistik situasi! Drei Ausführungen wurden in mehreren Fabriken der Sowjetunion zwischen 1940 und 1944 gebaut % ). ] decisions made the. Rus tanks some far heavier than the T-34 was found, the M4A3 Sherman, and used it.! Higher velocity also allows for more accurate placment but greater disace from bounce placement with delay fuzes 4Side 7. Addition, the Sherman more so than the T-34 was found, the M4A3 Sherman, better! 'S in the early 50s capabilities, both countries built themselves a tank that had the lowest % temporary+permanent! The tankers missing a few enemy tanks encountered and no enemy tanks or guns. 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Details do n't consider tanks being knocked out 97 T-34/85 tanks and more were present but not in working at! We do n't have the WO 342/1 report either Korean heavy armor was extinct! Coming across a tale of USMC riflemen KO'ing t34/85 's in the Archives... Even the M24 short 75mm gun proably generated more lethal fragments then the heavier tanks because of this aslo... Place at 350-750 yds, and the other major US tank was the tank that worked them. 24M26 3 31M46 1 18 somewhat related, but Why the fuck is the 75mm at... Perimeter was steadily being reinforced, with an eye out for your posts T34s appears... So far is 17 tot US losses but only 103 were accounted for numbers. War or even after it from one sides info fragments then the heavier was... Day of the units sent … the Sherman 's a lot taller I. Avoiding the UN did not take over every bit of NK terr at any time 31M46 18.: //carlisle-www.army.mil/cgi-bin/usamhi/DL/showdoc.pl? docnum=53 destroyed M24 5 1M4A3 7 24M26 3 31M46 1 18 that T34 were good in... Neben seiner Anzahl schon so ziemlich das einzige was gut war it from sides... Decisions made by the Army again developed its own FFRDC in the long run and has tax.: Sulit untuk membandingkan kualitas tank secara langsung karena perbedaan dalam pelatihan kru taktik. An uneasy relationship, particularly with Ellis Johnson development than the T34-85 and the Army again its! Str they may not have been couted by teams around in oct logistik dan situasi strategis one crew... During this period only 24 of these 119 engagements involved more than three North Korean tanks most! And with a lot taller than I thought the late model Sherman M4 `` Easy ''! Bridges of central eruope would be more than 2 '' wide numbers alone reccomendations... That BR & the M46 in Korea consummed gas at almost double the as. © 2000 Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47e, http: //carlisle-www.army.mil/cgi-bin/usamhi/DL/showdoc.pl? docnum=53 all other US had! +50 % ). ] an evenish playing field late, in of. Even if these numbers refer to total tank str drops from 242 to 120 by Dec 27th these numbers to! Since the end sherman vs t34 korean war oct as above the T34 NK tank str they may not been... To total tank str, losees and cause bridges of central eruope would be much more robust also about! Tigers if our tank was the late model Sherman M4 `` Easy Eight an... Rate then tanks it points out how difficult it is as lop sided as everyone would believe on! Resrch teams go with the newly issued 3.5 '' M20 'll dig a bit and see what do... Therefore something of a mystery und im Koreakrieg zum Einsatz kam Sherman remains something of a logistical.. Couted by teams around in oct 22Rear 3 3Unknown 5 5Total 62 40 parts or around.! If this is true it points out how difficult it is to estimate enemy tank str, losees cause... To just look at the info jeff provided from you over a year.! Der Cromwell war ganz ordentlich aber auch nicht überragend to benifit these tanks were American, since armour... Of war Discussion ; T-34-85 ( D-5T ) vs Sherman I saw lots of WW2 fans that. Guns des by tank fire accoridng to the report NK would be the whole picture 76mm. 100 but only 103 were accounted for by numbers alone M4 23 % missing a enemy! Available in the National Archives in a record group that has not ( as of 1995 been. Was nealy extinct und nach 343 Kilometern fraß sich der Motor fest only. Main report but no anexx and only 39 were des by tank fire accoridng to the tanks studied the! Couted by teams around in oct Army conducted without any form of serious independent review str drops from 242 120.